This is something I wrote about once in analyzing why don't superheroes kill. And yeah, at some point you wonder how clown clothes and makeup don't carry the death penalty in Gotham.
Very good analysis. The only thing I might remark on is that evil (which the Joker embodies) is parasitic on good, so even if Batman needs the resolve he gets from fighting the Joker, it is still the Joker who is more of a "parasite" rather than a fundamental. Though yes, without evil vigilantes would not need to exist.
Aaaand as a Shadow fan, I do have to point out that in the pulps he is a rather more nuanced character than the primal force of blind justice that you have painted him as.
He does a) often give crooks the chance to surrender (they rarely take it), b) generally spare the lives of men with the capability to reform (again, the opportunity depends on the person and not everyone takes it). Moreover, he c) sponsored an entire reform colony on a private tropical island--which he doesn't run, because that isn't his mission or his talent (as you pointed out, he's a figure of violence and vengeance, not redemption), but which he entrusts to his best / only friend, sociologist Slade Farrow--a man who *does* have the ability to coax criminals into the straight and narrow. And by sponsored, I don't mean just donated ex-mobsters, he supports it financially and logistically as well and helps keep an eye on those who do manage to integrate themselves back into society. :)
While there aren't any pulp stories that give us a direct look into The Shadow's mindset, there are plenty of them that follow him closely as the main character and show him in a humanized light.
Also, I'm pretty sure the Knights of the Round Table didn't kill Morgan Le Fay because, until the issue of the last unpleasantness in Camelot, she didn't actually do....or get caught doing....anything illegal....? As opposed to Guinevere, who was an open adultress. The example of Loki, which isn't a really good example, either, because the Norse gods did take the precaution of locking up the dangerous maniac in an inescapable dungeon and also punishing him severely to boot. The Joker gets kid gloves.
All that said, I'm not arguing with your overall point and this is a really thought-provoking essay. :) Thanks for posting it!
...and logging back in to add: The Shadow does give his motive for fighting crime--it's because he likes doing it. Pulp #131, The Shadow Unmasks, gives Kent Allard's history in brief as an ace pilot and secret agent adventuring behind enemy lines, then:
>> "The war ended," continued Allard. "I found that aviation offered part of the life I needed; but it provided neither the action of battle, nor the keen work of the secret agent. I rejected the idea of becoming a soldier of fortune. I considered warfare an uncivilized institution except when absolute necessity required it.
>> "I saw such necessity in a field that others had neglected. Crime was becoming rampant in America and elsewhere. Underworlds were organized, with their own hidden battle lines. Only a lone foe could pierce that cordon; once inside, he would have to move by stealth, and strike with power and suddenness. I chose that mission."<<
Well, they did let Loki get away with helping kill Baldur and the like and only finally locked him up after he killed one of the gods' stewards at a feast (in the version I read).
I always thought in the competition between him and the dwarf (who makes Thor's hammer) where they bet their heads against each other and Loki keeps his head because he says the dwarf can't touch his neck the dwarf should have just said "Ok fine then I'll just chop your head in half and leave your neck alone." Should have done the trick...
Yeah, because it's difficult to be "better" than a mass-murdering psychotic clown who tortures people or mass-murdering ecoterrorists, or mass-murdering _insert description_ freaks, however could he differentiate himself from such a person ever, what a conundrum oh noes!!
Joker like many "super-villains" are IMO so over the top that it is hard to imagine them existing in the Real World.
Of course, Batman & Shadow likely couldn't exist in the Real World (especially if we see Shadow as being a super-natural agent of Nemesis).
Still, Batman has a real-life counter-part, the Vigilante.
While the Vigilante, especially the Vigilante Organizations, can bring law and order to areas where law and order doesn't exist, there is the danger of the Vigilante being Wrong.
IE Is the target of his actions actually guilty of the crimes that the Vigilante thinks he is?
For that matter, is a Vigilante Organization actually interested in Justice or is it targeting people that just got on the wrong side of the group or individuals in the group?
Batman is generally a lone Vigilante. The fact that he generally turns over the criminals to the police can help him "stay on track" but if he goes "bad" and starts killing the people he considers criminals, who is in a position to stop him?
If Batman decided to execute criminals, he could (even without super-powers or guns) could clear Gotham City of organized crime.
Especially if he killed crooked police, crooked judges and crooked DAs.
What happens if he starts going after businessmen who threaten Wayne Enterprises?
So yes, in many ways Batman could be as bad as the Criminals that he claims to fight.
To be fair, I don't necessarily blame Batman for not being the Punisher. And the logic chain you cite has its points.
But the fact remains that a psycho mass murderer gets to live, breathe, and (save for the occasional spa days in Arkham) walk free to do *more harm* to innocent people just so our protagonist can keep his hands clean. Bruce Wayne already set himself outside the law when he put on the cowl. He doesn't get to wring his hands over a set of arbitrary, self-imposed moral standards. At some point, SOMEONE has to take responsibility and pull the damn lever that makes the damn clown crispy. (In case you hadn't noticed, I loathe the Joker.)
Also, as far as the Joker's continued non-crispiness, that's as much on the Gotham justice system as on Batman. But Gotham's justice system seems to be so horribly, depressingly, utterly criminally corrupt and/or incompetent, it's a wonder that Batman and co are the *only* people out patrolling their their home streets.....
"Career criminals throughout the centuries have typically believed themselves safe from Justice due to their wealth, power, secrecy, etc. The Shadow, as an emissary of Justice, penetrates these defenses and dispatches the wicked by their own means. These are the criminals the law will not touch, either because they do not know they exist or they are corrupt and ignoring them. “Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men? The Shadow knows!” is the hero’s motto for a reason. He knows what evil hides within men’s souls because Justice tells him where that evil abides before sending him to dispatch it."
Oh you would definitely enjoy the show Vengeance Unlimited then where I see now how Mr. Chapel is very much in this Shadow motif. What I often enjoyed in it though is that he almost always gave the target a chance - a way out they could save themselves if they would do the right thing but if they continued down their dark path his machinations would close in on them...
It was a style of writing I really wish I could master. "Justice offers you this chance to escape..." is tricky to do well.
In the Real World, Joker would have been executed by the State years ago. IE Joker isn't Legally Insane.
This is something I wrote about once in analyzing why don't superheroes kill. And yeah, at some point you wonder how clown clothes and makeup don't carry the death penalty in Gotham.
Joker is a mass murderer. That's why he'd been executed not because of "how he dresses".
Yes, I was making a joke about how with the Joker's horrendous crimes, clowns would be outlawed "just to be sure."
i'll start tagging my posts.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xECUrlnXCqk
Very good analysis. The only thing I might remark on is that evil (which the Joker embodies) is parasitic on good, so even if Batman needs the resolve he gets from fighting the Joker, it is still the Joker who is more of a "parasite" rather than a fundamental. Though yes, without evil vigilantes would not need to exist.
Aaaand as a Shadow fan, I do have to point out that in the pulps he is a rather more nuanced character than the primal force of blind justice that you have painted him as.
He does a) often give crooks the chance to surrender (they rarely take it), b) generally spare the lives of men with the capability to reform (again, the opportunity depends on the person and not everyone takes it). Moreover, he c) sponsored an entire reform colony on a private tropical island--which he doesn't run, because that isn't his mission or his talent (as you pointed out, he's a figure of violence and vengeance, not redemption), but which he entrusts to his best / only friend, sociologist Slade Farrow--a man who *does* have the ability to coax criminals into the straight and narrow. And by sponsored, I don't mean just donated ex-mobsters, he supports it financially and logistically as well and helps keep an eye on those who do manage to integrate themselves back into society. :)
While there aren't any pulp stories that give us a direct look into The Shadow's mindset, there are plenty of them that follow him closely as the main character and show him in a humanized light.
Also, I'm pretty sure the Knights of the Round Table didn't kill Morgan Le Fay because, until the issue of the last unpleasantness in Camelot, she didn't actually do....or get caught doing....anything illegal....? As opposed to Guinevere, who was an open adultress. The example of Loki, which isn't a really good example, either, because the Norse gods did take the precaution of locking up the dangerous maniac in an inescapable dungeon and also punishing him severely to boot. The Joker gets kid gloves.
All that said, I'm not arguing with your overall point and this is a really thought-provoking essay. :) Thanks for posting it!
...and logging back in to add: The Shadow does give his motive for fighting crime--it's because he likes doing it. Pulp #131, The Shadow Unmasks, gives Kent Allard's history in brief as an ace pilot and secret agent adventuring behind enemy lines, then:
>> "The war ended," continued Allard. "I found that aviation offered part of the life I needed; but it provided neither the action of battle, nor the keen work of the secret agent. I rejected the idea of becoming a soldier of fortune. I considered warfare an uncivilized institution except when absolute necessity required it.
>> "I saw such necessity in a field that others had neglected. Crime was becoming rampant in America and elsewhere. Underworlds were organized, with their own hidden battle lines. Only a lone foe could pierce that cordon; once inside, he would have to move by stealth, and strike with power and suddenness. I chose that mission."<<
Well, they did let Loki get away with helping kill Baldur and the like and only finally locked him up after he killed one of the gods' stewards at a feast (in the version I read).
I always thought in the competition between him and the dwarf (who makes Thor's hammer) where they bet their heads against each other and Loki keeps his head because he says the dwarf can't touch his neck the dwarf should have just said "Ok fine then I'll just chop your head in half and leave your neck alone." Should have done the trick...
Batman follows his code because he knows that if he doesn't, he'll be no better than the criminals he fights.
/salty Shadow fan/
Yeah, because it's difficult to be "better" than a mass-murdering psychotic clown who tortures people or mass-murdering ecoterrorists, or mass-murdering _insert description_ freaks, however could he differentiate himself from such a person ever, what a conundrum oh noes!!
/salty Shadow fan/
LOL :lol:
Joker like many "super-villains" are IMO so over the top that it is hard to imagine them existing in the Real World.
Of course, Batman & Shadow likely couldn't exist in the Real World (especially if we see Shadow as being a super-natural agent of Nemesis).
Still, Batman has a real-life counter-part, the Vigilante.
While the Vigilante, especially the Vigilante Organizations, can bring law and order to areas where law and order doesn't exist, there is the danger of the Vigilante being Wrong.
IE Is the target of his actions actually guilty of the crimes that the Vigilante thinks he is?
For that matter, is a Vigilante Organization actually interested in Justice or is it targeting people that just got on the wrong side of the group or individuals in the group?
Batman is generally a lone Vigilante. The fact that he generally turns over the criminals to the police can help him "stay on track" but if he goes "bad" and starts killing the people he considers criminals, who is in a position to stop him?
If Batman decided to execute criminals, he could (even without super-powers or guns) could clear Gotham City of organized crime.
Especially if he killed crooked police, crooked judges and crooked DAs.
What happens if he starts going after businessmen who threaten Wayne Enterprises?
So yes, in many ways Batman could be as bad as the Criminals that he claims to fight.
To be fair, I don't necessarily blame Batman for not being the Punisher. And the logic chain you cite has its points.
But the fact remains that a psycho mass murderer gets to live, breathe, and (save for the occasional spa days in Arkham) walk free to do *more harm* to innocent people just so our protagonist can keep his hands clean. Bruce Wayne already set himself outside the law when he put on the cowl. He doesn't get to wring his hands over a set of arbitrary, self-imposed moral standards. At some point, SOMEONE has to take responsibility and pull the damn lever that makes the damn clown crispy. (In case you hadn't noticed, I loathe the Joker.)
Also, as far as the Joker's continued non-crispiness, that's as much on the Gotham justice system as on Batman. But Gotham's justice system seems to be so horribly, depressingly, utterly criminally corrupt and/or incompetent, it's a wonder that Batman and co are the *only* people out patrolling their their home streets.....
...Why DO people live in Gotham, anyway??
2 favorite SFDebris quotes from his Batman reviews that I think you'll also appreciate in relation to this:
https://sfdebris.com/videos/animation/btass1e23.php (end of the review)
"[His obsession] isn't born of a hatred of criminals, but a love for his city and its people."
(Obviously I think the Shadow's drive is born of hatred.)
https://sfdebris.com/videos/animation/btass2e21.php (midpoint of the review)
"Batman is the Dark Knight because he is a paladin of light, he has just chosen darkness to be his cloak."
"Career criminals throughout the centuries have typically believed themselves safe from Justice due to their wealth, power, secrecy, etc. The Shadow, as an emissary of Justice, penetrates these defenses and dispatches the wicked by their own means. These are the criminals the law will not touch, either because they do not know they exist or they are corrupt and ignoring them. “Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men? The Shadow knows!” is the hero’s motto for a reason. He knows what evil hides within men’s souls because Justice tells him where that evil abides before sending him to dispatch it."
Oh you would definitely enjoy the show Vengeance Unlimited then where I see now how Mr. Chapel is very much in this Shadow motif. What I often enjoyed in it though is that he almost always gave the target a chance - a way out they could save themselves if they would do the right thing but if they continued down their dark path his machinations would close in on them...
It was a style of writing I really wish I could master. "Justice offers you this chance to escape..." is tricky to do well.